Parents' Guide to Teen Languishing: Why "Fine" Isn't Always Flourishing
In this episode of From Languishing to Living, therapist Tiffany Silva Herlin, LCSW, talks with Dr. Matt Hoag, Ph.D., about the concept of "languishing"—a state of emotional stagnation that often affects teens, especially post-pandemic. They explore how languishing differs from depression, how technology contributes to disconnection, and why doing nothing can lead to greater emotional risks. The episode highlights how nature-based therapy can support healing and motivation. If your teen seems unmotivated or emotionally flat, this conversation offers insights, early warning signs to watch for, and practical steps to help them move toward a healthier, more connected life.
If your teen seems unmotivated, withdrawn, or “just not themselves,” this episode will give you clarity and direction. You’ll learn how to spot the early warning signs of deeper emotional struggles—and why discomfort can be a doorway to healing. Tune in to the full episode or read the transcript below for expert advice and practical tools you can use right now. Take the first step toward helping your teen thrive—call us today at 435-272-1280.
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Podcast Transcript:
Introduction to Teen Mental Health
Tiffany: Welcome to From Languishing to Living: Real Help for Your Teen's Mental Health, a special podcast miniseries brought to you by ThreePeaks Ascent, a nature-based residential treatment program for teens. I'm your host, Tiffany Silva Herlin, a licensed clinical social worker, and in this three-part series, we're diving deep into the mental and emotional challenges facing today's teens—and how the nature of play and adventure therapy can help them not just survive, but truly thrive.
Whether your teen is struggling with motivation, stuck in a rut, or facing deeper emotional challenges, these conversations with Dr. Matt Hoag, a clinical psychologist from ThreePeaks Ascent, will give you insight, tools, and hope. Please remember that this podcast is not a replacement for therapy. Always seek help from a mental health professional for your specific situation.
Let's get into it. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today.
Matt: Good morning. Glad to be here.
Tiffany: Yeah, did you have a nice little drive?
Matt: I did.
Tiffany: From Southern Utah?
Matt: From Southern Utah, yep. Live down in St. George.
Tiffany: It's gorgeous down there.
Matt: Absolutely.
Tiffany: Well—let's dive in. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at ThreePeaks Ascent.
Matt: Okay, great. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I've been working in wilderness therapy for the last 27 or 28 years. I’ve worked at a variety of different places. Generally, they've been more of a nomadic model—traditional wilderness-oriented programs.
Moving over to ThreePeaks has been a shift to more of a residential treatment model, where we still incorporate nature and the wilderness aspects that I’ve been using throughout my career.
Tiffany: Oh, that's awesome. So you must love the outdoors, right?
Matt: Absolutely, yes.
Tiffany: What are some of your favorite hobbies outdoors?
Matt: I love to mountain bike. Southern Utah's a great place for mountain biking. I also enjoy hiking. During the pandemic, I discovered a lot of great new trails I didn’t even know existed, right in my backyard, since we were all staying close to home. I love to kayak as well—there are some nice reservoirs in Southern Utah, too.
Tiffany: Do you have a favorite hike you want to share with our listeners? Or maybe you don't want to give your secrets away?
Matt: Yeah, I think there’s a place called the Vortex—that one’s pretty fun.
Tiffany: I don't know if I know that one.
Matt: Yeah. There’s also one called Padre Canyon. It starts in Tuacahn and goes up and ends in Snow Canyon.
Tiffany: I love Tuacahn—and I love Snow Canyon.
Matt: Yeah, it's pretty nice.
Tiffany: I was hiking there one time, and we found some cougar tracks.
Matt: Nice.
Tiffany: And then the hikers in front of us were like, "Yeah, we saw the cougar." So we walked around with a rock for the rest of the hike.
Matt: Yeah. I just did Padre Canyon a couple of weekends ago, and we almost always see a tortoise wandering around. Those are kind of fun.
Tiffany: I hear they migrate through there.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Tiffany: Well, thank you so much for joining us and bringing some of your Southern Utah energy vibe with you. We love it.
Understanding Languishing
Tiffany: For this segment, we're going to be talking about defining languishing. Now, for our listeners who don't know what languishing is, it's a term introduced by Corey Keyes in his research and writing. It's a concept that's sparked a lot of conversation in our industry, especially about what people have been feeling since the pandemic, starting in 2020. Because for a while, we couldn’t quite put a word to that feeling. So let’s talk about what languishing is. How does he define it in the book?
Matt: Languishing is not depression. It's not suicidal ideation. It’s not self-harm. It’s not completely isolating or disconnecting from the world. It’s like a softer, gentler version of that.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: I remember my—she’s probably 25 now—my daughter had this t-shirt growing up that just said “meh” on the front. And she thought it captured her attitude at times. That’s what languishing feels like: not too engaged, not too interested, not doing much, not feeling motivated.
In clinical terms, you might say it's a less severe, depressive-looking state, but not quite depression. It mimics or mirrors symptoms of low-grade depression, but it's not classified the same way.
Tiffany: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. He describes it as a state between depression and flourishing. And I love that he talks about flourishing—that’s such a great term. I just read a book on that recently.
But languishing is this low-grade emotional stagnation. You feel stuck, aimless, and emotionally flat.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: So I guess as I was reading, I started thinking about teens. How does this show up in teenagers?
Matt: Since the pandemic, one of the biggest challenges for teens has been how disconnected they’ve become from the world. The pandemic forced them to go to school online and connect with their friends virtually. That social distancing, that disconnection, really contributed to Corey Keyes being able to name and describe this concept of languishing.
And even before the pandemic, there were signs of disconnection—through social media and technology—but it’s been amplified since then. During the lockdown, young people didn’t have the option to connect in person, so they turned more and more to digital platforms. That shift gave rise to defining themselves more consistently through what they post or consume online.
Tiffany: Yeah. When you're a kid, your built-in social network is school, starting from kindergarten through college. But we took that away from our kids during the pandemic. Like you said, it pushed them even more into electronic connection.
And as you and I both know, social media might connect, but it can also make you feel lonelier than ever.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: I mean, why is that? It’s such a weird thing, right?
Matt: Well, it gives a false sense of security—a false sense of connection. We connect through likes, comments, and views. But that’s not a real, relational connection.
I’ve worked with teens—and even my daughters—who’ve said things like, “Why didn’t so-and-so comment on my post?” or “Why didn’t they engage with me?” So instead of real relationships, it becomes this false or shallow version of connection.
Tiffany: It’s counterfeit.
Matt: Yeah. Like, “Oh, I got a hundred likes on this!” or “I had 8,000 views on the video I posted.”
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: And so it creates this sense of being defined by other people’s actions, which we’re not really in control of. The only thing we can control is whether we do the most outlandish, ridiculous, or silly video that might grab someone’s attention.
Tiffany: Yeah. And it’s only showing a glimpse of our lives.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: Which, I think, as a teenager, is hard to grasp. Their brains aren’t fully developed yet—they don’t quite have that abstract thinking in place. So it's tough to understand, “Oh, that’s just a portion of that person’s life—and it’s the best portion.”
Matt: Yeah. Whatever we choose to put out there is whatever we think is the best version of ourselves. I remember being on vacation—this was in San Francisco—and we visited a historical site. There was a couple there taking photos, and they spent about 30 minutes just trying to get the perfect shot.
Tiffany: To get that perfect Instagram shot.
Matt: They kept reviewing the photo, retaking it, adjusting again and again.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: And we couldn’t even get our picture because we were waiting for them to finish their shoot. And it was in front of something kind of silly, too.
Tiffany: Yeah. So, Corey talks about this at the very end of the book—and I know I’m jumping ahead—but I feel like it’s relevant right now. He mentions how when people go on vacations and focus on getting the perfect photo and editing it, it takes away from the leisure and play we need in life.
And it becomes a “thing.”
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: Once you post it, once you’re trying to get those likes and that perfect shot, it’s no longer this fun, playful, leisure experience. It becomes a thing, and that thing just has less value.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: And I just kind of love that.
The Consequences of Languishing
iffany: I wanted to talk a little bit about—like you said—they're disconnected. But it also shows up as this disinterest, low motivation… again, like you said, disconnected. They're not in crisis, but they're also not thriving. And yes, this was exacerbated during the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t around before that.
Matt: Correct. Yes.
Tiffany: Yeah. Let’s talk about a few studies. In 2010, there was an interesting study that found that languishing could increase your chances of experiencing depression and anxiety disorders. So while it’s not anxiety or depression, it can lead to it, right?
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I think what Corey talks about in his book is this idea that languishing puts us at higher risk for developing mental health issues. It creates the kind of ideal conditions for depressive or anxiety-type disorders to develop, if it goes unchecked. If there is not something done about it, it can lead to deeper states of depression or more intense anxiety symptoms.
Tiffany: Yeah. Well, I mean, I like to say—he talks about it being stagnation—but I feel like you're either moving forward or you're going backward. You can fall into this “meh” state of being, but you're either going to move forward and thrive, or you’re going to slide back into mental health issues, right?
That’s kind of how I see it. We’re not always just sitting in one place—we’re constantly ebbing and flowing.
Another interesting study was one we talked about with COVID-19 hospitalizations in Italy. Languishing was linked to a higher risk of developing post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in healthcare workers. I thought that was interesting.
And then—let’s see—there was one more from 2014. Okay, this one I want to talk to you about. Did you pick up on this study? As I was reading it, I thought of you. It was a 2014 study…
Matt: Yes. Was it the one about the self-harm kind of stuff as well?
Tiffany: Yeah, okay. So in 2014, there was a study where participants were asked to sit alone with their thoughts.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: They took away writing tools, cell phones—basically, any distractions. And interestingly enough, researchers thought most people would have such a wealth of imagination and inner life that they’d enjoy it.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: But what ended up happening?
Matt: Yeah. Well, people couldn’t sit with their thoughts. They struggled with just being alone in their minds. They needed a device—something to entertain them.
You see it all the time—people in the checkout lane at the grocery store. We don’t talk to people anymore. We’re just scrolling—What’s going on on Instagram? What do I want to look up on Facebook? Am I getting the best price for this?
We’re not present in those moments. Not that the checkout lane is that interesting, but we could meet someone in front of us or behind us.
Tiffany: And connect.
Matt: Yeah. Or pay attention to our kids in the cart.
Tiffany: Imagine that.
Matt: Right? Talk to each other. But people are so uncomfortable—whether it's apprehension or just a lack of ability—to be alone with their thoughts. They would rather... I forget the exact details of the study, but they would hurt themselves rather than sit and feel nothing. Just because they didn’t have their device, their smartphone—their tether to the world.
It’s like those moments when you’re on an airplane and the Wi-Fi goes down.
Tiffany: Oh my gosh.
Matt: And it’s treated like a tragedy. What am I going to do for the next three hours? Honestly, it’s one of my favorite times. I get to sit and read a book—like an actual book, not one on a screen. Something is grounding about disconnecting from devices and being present in a different way.
Tiffany: Yeah. That reminds me of this movie I watched with my kids called The Mitchells vs. The Machines. There’s this part where someone says, “Watch what happens when I turn off the Wi-Fi,” and everyone just freaks out. It’s the same idea.
In that study, they found that 50% of people didn’t enjoy sitting with their thoughts—their enjoyment level was at or below the midpoint of the scale. And like you mentioned, they gave participants the option to press a button that would deliver an electric shock.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: And shockingly—no pun intended—67% of men and 25% of women chose to inflict that shock on themselves rather than sit quietly and think. It’s just fascinating. People were so uncomfortable just being, not connected to anything, so afraid of missing out.
Matt: What’s my friend doing? What’s my cousin up to? What’s happening that I’m not a part of?
Tiffany: What sales are going on? Like you said—what am I missing? And to think that people would rather hurt themselves just to feel something…
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: Fascinating.
Languishing in Teen Life
Tiffany: Let’s shift back to teens. Can you give us an example of what languishing might look like in a teen’s life?
Matt: Yeah. With the young people I work with, it’s striking to watch their behavior. It’s almost like an addiction or a real challenge when they arrive here—well, when they’re in treatment and away from home—being separated from those things.
Tiffany: Yeah, because they’re getting fully disconnected from the Wi-Fi with you guys.
Matt: Exactly. It’s almost like a loss for them. Sometimes, you see those addictive symptoms, like craving the device. We’ll talk about “phantom vibrations” in their pocket, which happens a lot. It’s that feeling of always needing to hold something or be connected to something.
This contributes to the “meh” feeling, the languishing, where they feel more and more disconnected from people and things, thinking their connection is just through that phone or device. I’ll take pictures of them in the wilderness, and they’ll say things like, “Oh, you have the Wi-Fi,” or “Oh, you have the 4G.”
Tiffany: Do you see a withdrawal from teens when they come into residential and don’t have access to these things?
Matt: Yeah, they struggle. It varies depending on the type of app or media they were attached to. For example, some worry, “My streaks are getting ruined”—that’s a real thing for some of them.
They think, “What are my friends doing? They’re going to think I disappeared or died because I’m not online.” On the other hand, there’s also this paranoia about parents accessing their phones or passwords because they don’t want parents to know what they’ve been up to. But at the same time, they want their parents to reach out to their friends because they’re worried about how their friends are reacting.
So, whereas you and I might have worried about what happened at the playground or the dance, they worry about what’s happening in their digital life. They’ll say things like, “Please don’t sign me out,” or “Please don’t check my phone,” because they get concerned about what their parents might do if they have access. They want their parents involved, but also don’t want to give up their secrets or things they’re not ready to own yet.
The Complexity of Parental Involvement
Tiffany: No, that makes perfect sense. This device complicates things for teens because they have this false sense of security, attachment, and secrets. If parents aren’t on top of it, helping teens navigate that complex adult world online, then going through the withdrawals, you see them withdraw in groups or say they’re fine but show low motivation and low interest.
Matt: Yeah, they can be pretty flat sometimes. Especially in the last four or five years, social skills have decreased. So the question becomes, how do you relate to somebody in person? How do you talk to them face-to-face? It’s not that they have no experience, but they haven’t had enough to feel comfortable. Here they are with a new group of people they don’t know, who might not be their kind of people. That dynamic—learning to talk or beginning to talk—can come with initial apprehensiveness, uncertainty, and flat mood.
Then, in that addictive realm, there can be more anger and volatility: "Screw this, I’m upset about being here. How dare they do this to me?" Some teens react more intensely depending on how they’re built or how they handle loss. For some, it’s almost like a small-t trauma.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: Like, "I can’t believe they did this to me. Why would they do it like this? They didn’t give me any warning." It can be an intense reaction because of that loss of connectedness, at least the kind of connectedness they have online with peers.
Tiffany: Do you think this small-t trauma has long-term effects, or is it something they can work through?
Matt: Typically, it’s something they can work through. But that initial period is tough—those first few days where they think, "This is hard. I can’t believe this happened. What am I going to do?" Sometimes they escalate, making up all kinds of stories—like a girlfriend might be pregnant, or something else urgent is going on. They want to get hold of someone or hear news about something.
Teenagers can be manipulative, so sometimes those stories are true, sometimes not. I’ll say, "You can check it out and see." Then it’s like, "Okay, do you want your parents to check with your girlfriend about the pregnancy test?" Or, "Maybe it’s not that. Maybe I was supposed to go to a concert, and I have the tickets on my phone."
Tiffany: Yeah, I like to call those “white rabbits.” You’re probably familiar with the term extinction burst, right? Where behavior gets bigger and bigger while you hold boundaries. For parents listening, when you see this escalating behavior, it means you’re on the right path, hitting the right nerve. If you hold your ground, it will eventually burst. Am I saying that correctly?
Matt: Yeah. For some young people, especially when they return from residential or have been away from home, there’s a dynamic of testing boundaries—seeing what parents will allow. That extinction burst is a really good sign that you’re both doing what you’re supposed to do. It takes time, and parents need to survive or work through that.
Sometimes it’s manipulation—not necessarily on purpose—but very much oriented to "I need you to change this because I want my Wi-Fi time back."
Tiffany: I’m going to put pressure and distraction on you so I don’t have to do the work, and I get back to what I want.
Matt: Exactly. I’m still being soothed by my addiction or what I’m hyper-focused on having.
Tiffany: Exactly. So parents, if you’re listening, that big behavior isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It usually means you’re going in the right direction.
Matt: Our staff in the woods or at ThreePeaks are very focused on supporting young people through that kind of loss process because, for them, it is a loss. They’re used to being soothed by something—sometimes that’s drugs, but other times it’s some other addictive process. It could be social media, a hyper-reliance on friends, or an intense focus on a boyfriend or girlfriend, or a partner they feel they can’t survive without.
I’ve had many young people tell me things like, “My boyfriend/girlfriend is in danger. They’re suicidal. They’re this, they’re that. I’m the only one keeping them alive.” That kind of hyper-intensity often shows up in those first few days as they begin the process of letting go of the outside world and settling into treatment.
Tiffany: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. From a therapist’s perspective, it’s really about getting them out of that languishing state. You start to see emotion, not necessarily happy or thriving emotions, yet, but change is hard. You don’t flourish when things are comfortable. You have to go through the rough part of change before you can start flourishing. So when we see these big behaviors, it’s a good sign—they’re moving out of that languishing state.
Identifying Signs of Languishing
Tiffany: An example parents might see at home is that their teen used to love playing video games with friends, but now they’re just scrolling on their phone alone in their room. Or maybe they say they’re fine but have withdrawn and lost interest in the things they used to enjoy. It’s just that “blah” feeling. So when we move them out of that environment and start to see bigger reactions and emotions, that’s a good thing.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: What does languishing look like when they’re in school?
Matt: It looks like apathy—like they don’t care about completing assignments or doing schoolwork. They think, “What does this matter? When am I ever going to use algebra? Why do I need to know this history?” It’s dismissive and low-grade resistance, not total isolation, but a lack of motivation.
Tiffany: So math feels pointless.
Matt: Exactly. They’re dismissing it because it feels unimportant to them.
Tiffany: That makes a lot of sense. What are the long-term risks of staying in that languishing state during adolescence, especially developmentally?
Matt: Like I mentioned earlier, it puts teens at higher risk for mental health issues like depression, anxiety, behavioral problems, or self-soothing with substances or other addictions—sometimes gaming, for example. When someone is stuck and not functioning in a typical developmental way, it can delay their growth.
For instance, an untreated or unsupported teen with ADHD might appear a couple of years behind emotionally or maturity-wise. Even if they’re receiving medication or treatment, if they don’t take the necessary developmental steps, like learning social skills or academic persistence, they get stuck.
Tiffany: Right.
Matt: They miss out on learning how to handle interpersonal challenges, how to push through difficult tasks like history or algebra. They don’t develop the grit they need.
Tiffany: That grit we want our kids to have.
Matt: Exactly. So if a 13-year-old stays stuck at a 13-year-old developmental level for months, it sets up a pattern where things like history or math just feel “meh” or boring the next year. Over time, instead of building resilience, they build resistance—“I just don’t do math,” or “I hate history.”
Sometimes it’s as simple as a teacher not being engaging, but then even when a teacher is good, the teen still isn’t interested and uses that as an excuse. That ends up slowing their development in important ways.
Tiffany: Yeah, they miss out on critical life skills—like goal setting, emotional regulation, and that genuine connection they need. And, like we touched on, it can lead to academic decline, social withdrawal, depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues.
So, if it’s not addressed, it’s like they’re either moving forward or moving backward. Unfortunately, it often feels like they’re on a developmental vacation.
Matt: Exactly. And part of our role as parents is to help facilitate or encourage their growth, whether it’s checking in on homework or just engaging in those relational conversations that are so important in adolescence, as they work through their identity and figure out who they are.
Not just academically, but socially and interpersonally, too. Sometimes they’re sorting through questions about sexual orientation or other parts of themselves. If we don’t create space for that exploration, they can get stuck or lost in those places.
Tiffany: Yeah, the teen years are the time when they’re supposed to be building that identity and self-confidence. Without the right opportunities to grow resilience, they risk losing themselves.
Matt: Totally. I often tell young people as they prepare to return home, “It’s your parents’ job to annoy you. It’s your job to push against their rules and expectations.” That’s just part of the dynamic of adolescence—and parenting teens. Our job as parents is to support them through that struggle by holding boundaries, setting expectations, and holding them accountable. That creates the healthy tension they need as they figure out who they want to be.
They don’t want to be us anymore—they want to move on and find themselves. And those boundaries give them opportunities to grow, instead of staying stuck in that “meh,” languishing place.
Tiffany: I love that. I often remind myself going through the teenage years with my own kids that when my sweet little girls who used to be so obedient and eager suddenly start giving me attitude and having big emotional ups and downs—it’s normal. My daughter once said, “I hate it,” and I told her, “I know, but it won’t last forever.”
Matt: Of course.
Tiffany: And when they give me attitude or say no, I remind myself, “That’s okay. We’ll work through it. I’ll hold the boundary, but I won’t take it personally, because this is exactly where we need to be.”
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: Parents listening need to hear this: if your kids are giving you typical teenage behavior, that’s okay. It means you’re right where you should be.
Differentiating Moodiness from Clinical Depression
Tiffany: Let’s tackle a question a lot of parents have: How do you know if it’s just normal teenage moodiness or if it’s something more serious like clinical depression? How can we tell the difference between languishing and actual depression?
Matt: Yeah, great question. Part of it, like you said earlier, is having open conversations with our kids. When they’re willing to talk with us, that’s already a big step in the right direction. But sometimes, when they’re not having those conversations—that’s when we might need to be more concerned.
It comes back to connectedness. Even when teens are in that “meh” or languishing state, or even depressed, they tend to disconnect, and we might not be as aware of what’s going on with them. So, paying attention to changes, like not doing chores they usually do, skipping homework, or withdrawing from things they normally push back against, can be red flags.
And, honestly, part of this is us parents doing our work, too. We have to check in with ourselves: Are we languishing? Are we caught in our own “meh” phase? The pandemic, or just life stress, has affected all of us. Sometimes we’re self-soothing with devices or distractions, and if we’re not present emotionally, it’s hard to support our kids.
So if we’re exhausted, not taking breaks, not caring for ourselves, that can spill over and contribute to our kids’ struggles. Our languishing can mirror—and even fuel—their languishing.
Tiffany: I love that you said that. We talk about it on every podcast: as parents, we have to look in the mirror and ask, “What am I struggling with? What am I projecting onto my kids without realizing it? Am I doing my self-care? Am I in therapy? Am I challenging my own beliefs?”
We’re asking our kids to be vulnerable and connect, but we have to model that first. We have to show them what it looks like to struggle—and to keep going. It’s okay to struggle.
Matt: Totally. I remember one therapy session with my son—he’s 20 now, but back then he was about 12 or 13. He’d just met with his therapist alone, then my wife and I joined. He gave us feedback—told me he didn’t like it when I was sarcastic while disciplining him.
Even though sarcasm is kind of our family’s love language, that moment wasn’t the right time for it. I was annoyed that he wasn’t doing what I asked, and I tried to be playful about it, but it just made him feel worse. He started isolating more and told me directly, “Dad, I don’t like it when you do that.”
I realized I needed to work on that—stop using sarcasm in those moments because it pushed him away.
Tiffany: Oh, I get that! My daughters give me my own medicine. I tell them not to be sassy, and they go, “Well, you’re sassy too!” And then I look at my husband like, “See?” He just shrugs, and I’m like, “Okay, you’re right—I need to work on that if I’m gonna ask them to change.” Of course, I want to come back with a sassy reply—“What do you mean I’m sassy?”—but I don’t.
Matt: (laughs) Yeah.
Tiffany: So yeah, I love that honesty. Now, let’s dive into what real clinical depression looks like.
Matt: Okay, so clinical depression usually shows up in a few key ways, and one of the biggest things is how it impacts their daily life. When we think about depression in teens, we look at whether they’re meeting the typical expectations for their age, whether they’re going to school, doing their homework, and staying socially engaged.
Depression often comes with symptoms like sadness, isolation, and a real disconnect, not just the kind of connectedness we have through phones, but a disconnect from the people around them. So, for example, a teen might start isolating themselves face-to-face, spending more time alone in their room, or withdrawing from activities they once enjoyed.
Now, some of this might be normal. Like, teens are figuring out who they are, and sometimes that means they lose interest in a long-time hobby—say, a kid who’s played soccer for years might stop playing. But the concern comes when it’s more extreme. Maybe they qualified for a traveling soccer team, but now they just want to sit in their room, glued to their phone or playing video games constantly. That kind of withdrawal is a red flag.
You might also notice they’re more irritable or short-tempered. While some moodiness is normal in teens, when they can’t engage in basic conversations—like how school was that day or what they’re up to—it can be a sign something deeper is going on.
Sometimes the withdrawal looks like pulling away from friends. Other times, it’s the opposite—over-relying on friends or spending so much time with them that the whole dynamic shifts, and you, as a parent, feel completely out of the loop.
Whether they’re isolating in their room, using substances, getting lost in gaming, or over-engaging with friends to escape, if it’s interfering with their ability to function at school, at work, in relationships, or hobbies, that’s when it becomes more serious and might indicate clinical depression.
Identifying Symptoms of Withdrawal and Isolation
Matt: So, those interests often plummet or just become less important to them. Differentiating between that normal shifting of identity and actual depression is part of the assessment. But it’s not just one thing — it’s a collection of symptoms, like mood changes, how they treat you or others, sometimes even poor treatment of their friends. Like a teen might say, “I don’t like so-and-so anymore because they’re a jerk.” Those kinds of things add up and help us move from just ‘languishing’ to more clinical depression — the kind of situation where it’s time to seek help.
Tiffany: Yeah, especially when it reaches that stage of suicidal ideation — when they’re not necessarily wanting to die, but maybe don’t want to live either. Is that parasuicidal? Am I saying that right?
Matt: Yeah, exactly. It’s this apathy that develops, where they just don’t care. I remember, even as a teen, I had this belief I wouldn’t live past 25. I don’t know why I thought that, but it was like, “What’s the point of living?” That kind of giving up, feeling like the future doesn’t matter. Of course, I made it past 25, and most kids do, but that mindset is serious.
A lot of it comes down to them trying to figure out how to deal with emotions and what’s going on inside. Their behaviors, choices, and relationships might get more dramatic or extreme. As parents, our job is to support and listen — not immediately jump in to fix or rescue.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: Or to say things like, “Don’t worry, you won’t care about this in 10 years. These friends won’t matter.” We all know that’s true, but it feels like a punch to the gut when you dismiss your kid’s feelings. That kind of invalidation shuts them down, and they stop coming to us.
We want to create a space where they feel safe telling us what’s going on — their depression, suicidal thoughts, or other struggles. When we invalidate or lecture them, it closes that door.
Tiffany: Oh, that’s so hard as a parent.
Matt: It is. That’s why we have to do our work — so in those moments, we don’t feel threatened or like we’re reliving our childhood or adolescence through them. We can let them be teenagers in their way, especially since we didn’t grow up with social media or the kinds of pressures teens face now.
Understanding them is a journey. The more we stay connected without judgment, the more they’ll keep coming back to us.
Tiffany: Absolutely. If we aren’t comfortable with discomfort ourselves and haven’t done our work, we can’t sit with our kids’ discomfort. And they need to sit in it and work through it. Often, enabling looks like, “I love my kids so much, I just want to rescue them.” But honestly, it’s a bit selfish.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: Because it’s really like, “I’m so uncomfortable with you being upset, I have to make you feel better so I can feel better.”
Matt: Exactly — “Then I won’t worry about you anymore because I know you’re fine.”
Tiffany: Right.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: At that point, languishing and depression can kind of ebb and flow. There’s a fluid motion, and sometimes they crossover. I’ll give an example for listeners — one of my kids is motivated and outgoing, but also a bit of an introvert. So it’s tricky to tell when they just want some quiet time in their room reading versus when it’s true isolation.
But I started noticing something was off. It wasn’t quite depression yet — more like languishing. For example, we were doing a fun activity they normally love, but they just looked kind of “meh” and distant. I asked, “Hey, what’s going on?” And they said, “I feel like I should be happy, but I’m not.”
That was a big red flag. They weren’t suicidal; they were still doing their homework, but they were less engaged. I recognized a lot of the signs you described, and I thought, It’s time to get them into therapy. They weren’t ready to open up to me yet, which is normal, but they were definitely in this languishing state that was tipping toward depression.
For our listeners, if you’re noticing this kind of “should be happy but isn’t” feeling, that’s a red flag that it might be time to move forward and seek support. Keyes talks about meaning and engagement as antidotes to languishing. So, Matt, how does a nature-immersed environment like that at ThreePeaks Ascent help support those elements?
Matt: That’s a great question. One thing we haven’t talked much about today is presentness — the ability to be fully present with whatever is happening inside of you. We touched on it earlier when discussing emotions and the importance of being present with our kids during these tough moments.
Being outdoors or in a nature-oriented environment demands a kind of presentness that’s different from everyday life. When you’re immersed in nature, distractions are reduced, and it becomes easier to connect with your inner experience — your thoughts, feelings, and body sensations — in a more immediate, grounded way.
This presentness supports therapy because it helps teens slow down and experience themselves, which is a key part of healing. It also fosters meaning and engagement by inviting them to connect with the natural world, their peers, and their sense of purpose in a way that’s often hard to replicate indoors or in more typical settings.
Nature as a Therapeutic Environment
Matt: First of all, in nature-oriented therapy, there are no devices. So suddenly, the teen is faced with the question, What do I do? How do I sit with my thoughts without distractions?
I have boys myself, and one of my favorite kinds of “defiance” in wilderness therapy is when they sneak books to read. We assign certain books, but they trade books or sneak their own, and I love that kind of defiance — at least they’re reading! Sometimes that’s their way of disconnecting, using a book to escape into another world.
But sometimes it’s because they’re so used to being disconnected from their feelings and the people around them that they don’t know how to be present. Wilderness therapy pushes them to be present with what’s happening right now — whether that’s an argument, a group activity, or even something like learning to make a fire with sticks. They learn to recognize when someone’s upset or reactive, and how to respond or cope, even if it doesn’t directly involve them.
Sometimes, they might just go off to the corner or sit by the campfire when emotions get overwhelming. That kind of presentness with their emotional state or reactivity is really hard for a lot of people.
That’s why so many of us self-soothe with addictive things — phones, food, sex, alcohol, drugs — because these things help us avoid being present with uncomfortable emotions.
One of the beautiful things about being in nature is that those distractions and coping mechanisms aren’t there. Nature demands a different kind of presentness. Without phones or other distractions, teens have to face their emotions directly.
The feelings — whether it’s anxiety, sadness, or frustration — haven’t disappeared. They’re still there, often “clogged up” from unresolved developmental stages. Wilderness therapy gives teens the chance to experience and process those emotions in a way that’s very different from sitting in an office or watching a movie.
Tiffany: Yeah, it’s not like watching a movie.
Matt: Exactly. Whether it’s a simple hike or a group game, being outdoors creates opportunities for teens to notice feelings they’ve been avoiding. Sometimes those feelings come up spontaneously — a teen might start talking about something on a hike, or they might experience frustration or teamwork challenges during group activities.
Those experiential activities create moments where teens can react and practice managing emotions in real time.
Tiffany: Yeah, the experiential piece is so important.
Matt: It is. Those moments mirror what happens in day-to-day life and give teens a chance for corrective experiences — working through emotions and reactions in a way that’s healing.
Tiffany: Because sometimes talk therapy can be so cognitive, so much about thinking and analyzing.
Matt: Right.
Tiffany: As adults, we get pretty good at this, right? Teenagers start to learn it too. When we’re cognitive, we can put up walls—we talk about our feelings and give them names, but often we’re still disconnected from the actual emotions. We develop defenses to navigate life without really feeling.
But when you throw yourself into nature and a real, immersive experience, it’s different. I just read this book called Nature-Based Therapy. There’s an article about it on your website for parents who want to dive deeper. The research shows how powerful it is to reconnect—to go for a walk, visit a park, go hiking, or even just sit and meditate outdoors. It’s incredibly beneficial for mental health, especially because so many of us are disconnected from nature. Kids and teens need this connection for their development and to truly thrive.
Nature is just so powerful. And when we talk about languishing, it’s interesting because you can’t just shut off the bad emotions like depression without shutting off the good ones too.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: When you shut down your emotions, you shut down all emotions. That’s where the numb “meh” feeling comes from.
Matt: Exactly.
Tiffany: So when you start sitting with your emotions and connecting with nature, you have to be present. Many of my clients have said that meditation is really hard because those emotions get loud.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: We’ve muted those feelings for so long that when you turn that volume back on and sit with them, it can feel overwhelming at first.
As parents, as you help your teens through this process, it’s important to know it’s going to be uncomfortable. Being in nature, disconnected from devices, sitting with those raw emotions—it’s hard. But if you stick with it and allow that discomfort, healing happens. Teens can move through those feelings and come to a place of peace and growth.
Matt: Yeah.
The Challenge of Emotional Presence
Tiffany: This resonates with what I’ve seen in my clients—and in myself—especially around connection through nature. When I’m out on walks, I often notice people with their headphones in.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: But I try not to use headphones unless I’m doing an intense run and need some pump-up music. Sometimes I’ll listen to an audiobook if I’m multitasking, but mostly I just take them out. I’ll bring my daughter or my little one along and say, “Hey, do you hear that bird? Or the train?” and notice what’s around me. I get such a bigger dopamine hit that way, much more than blasting music and rushing to get my steps in. It’s way more therapeutic and healing to connect with nature and just be present.
Matt: Absolutely.
Tiffany: So to my listeners, I want to encourage you next time you go for a walk, try leaving your headphones behind. Encourage your kids to do the same. We all need that disconnect.
Matt: I get that. Sometimes I think, “I’ll bring my AirPods in my camelback just in case I want to listen to music or a book while solo hiking.” But 98% of the time, I never even take them out. Once I’m out there, I just enjoy being present—whether that’s with myself or nature.
And sometimes I get annoyed by people who carry those portable Bluetooth speakers blasting their music. It’s like, “Hey, I’m out here to escape the noise, not bring it with me.” I’m aging myself, huh?
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: I love music—I’m a concert guy—but when I’m in nature, I want to be in nature, not bringing the outside world with me through music or podcasts. It’s an escape from distractions and a challenge to truly be present.
And it circles back to what we were talking about earlier—when our teens try to share their emotions, can we be present with them? Because that muting effect you mentioned, that numbing of emotions—both the good and the bad—happens when we don’t allow ourselves to feel.
Creating a Safe Emotional Environment
Matt: So being with the negative allows them to feel safe enough to be more positive with us or let some of the good emotions out as well. That way, they can start to feel the full range of emotions more regularly. And a lot of that is so much easier when we’re not distracted by television, gaming, or phones. Being in nature is a great way to be with more of those emotions in our lives.
Tiffany: Yeah. There’s such beauty in the silence. There’s beauty in the struggle. And if we can create that safe emotional environment, that safety net for them—
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: —to realize those feelings aren’t as scary as they thought they were. The more you acknowledge them, the faster they pass, and you can work through them. There’s so much healing and beauty in that.
Matt: Absolutely.
Tiffany: Let’s end with a story about a teen you saw shift from languishing to flourishing at ThreePeaks Ascent.
Matt: So there was this boy I worked with this year who was pretty used to things going his way. He was fairly entitled, pretty expectant about how things should be.
Tiffany: Wait, teenagers are entitled? Yeah, adults are too sometimes.
Matt: Exactly. As we started family sessions, he talked about being excited to see his parents, but then he’d get on them, pouting or being irritable. His parents had written him a letter—a kind of hopes and intentions letter—expressing why he was in treatment and their hopes for him. He had an assignment to reflect on it and write a response, but he blew it off for weeks.
When he finally read it, he said, “Wow, I was a real jerk.” Coming face to face with some of his choices shifted his perspective from feeling justified and dismissive to reflecting on himself.
He was 14 but looked older—kind of a big kid who could manipulate situations well. Sometimes he just did what he wanted anyway. But sitting with that letter, without distractions like his e-bike or other things he used to manipulate or self-soothe, helped him be present with himself.
Part of that shift was probably boredom, because I think sometimes young people don’t know how to be bored or don’t get bored in healthy ways.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Matt: Like they think somehow they should always be entertained.
Tiffany: Well, some parents are like, “Oh no, my kids are bored. I have to entertain them.” And I’m like, no, you don’t.
Matt: Yeah. Let them be bored. I know sometimes in family sessions when young people say, “I’m bored,” parents respond, “Good. That’s great.” So he got bored enough to look at himself in ways he hadn’t before. And that, as simple as it sounds, was the turning point in his therapy.
I don’t know if he was truly depressed. I think he was just uncertain, unclear about where his life was going and what to do with it. He was used to being fed, whether material things or activities, or getting away with stuff. So just having to sit with himself was huge.
He started treating his parents better on family therapy calls, showed up differently, and suddenly saw how he’d been treating some of his peers. He began to be more playful and genuinely human again, showing up in ways adults can relate to, with all our issues.
Recognizing that he could be different with people was a big step because he saw what he was doing. He used a different word than “jerk,” but he was pretty dismissive of himself. He said, “Wow, look at how I’ve been treating my parents, and they’ve done so much for me.” Getting to that place wasn’t about adoration or appearances—it was about seeing the relationship differently than how he had constructed it in his head.
Tiffany: I love that. Getting rid of the outward distractions allowed him to turn inward and do the real work he’d been needing to do forever.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: And start listening to those emotions, which shifted his perspective and allowed him to do the true healing he needed, for him and his parents.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: So for our listeners, there’s hope. If your kid is in a state of “meh,” languishing, maybe teetering on depression or anxiety, there’s hope for them to move through this and start thriving.
Matt: Yeah.
Tiffany: That’s really what we want.
We’re going to talk more about that. So far, we’ve hit on what languishing is...
Recognizing Languishing in Teens
Tiffany: We’ve given it a name. Hopefully, to our listeners, it resonates with some of you where you’re like, “Ah, it wasn’t quite depression, but something is going on with my kid.” In the next episode, we’re going to talk about what to do with it.
There’s a lot we can do. Corey Keyes gives us a whole list, but the one we want to focus on is the power of play. He has a whole chapter that I love. We’ll dive into what play looks like and how we can engage more in play with our teens, especially in nature.
So, listeners, stay tuned. Matt, thank you so much for joining us.
Matt: Absolutely.
Tiffany: I love having this conversation with you. You have such depth of knowledge, wisdom, and experience. I hope my listeners have enjoyed it as much as I have. So thank you.
Matt: Yeah, you bet. Thank you.